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	<title>Comments on: Do any charities know what they&#8217;re doing?</title>
	<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2007/04/24/do-any-charities-know-what-theyre-doing/</link>
	<description>Exploring how to get real change for your dollar.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 06:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Gillian</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2007/04/24/do-any-charities-know-what-theyre-doing/#comment-2954</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 21:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2007/04/24/do-any-charities-know-what-theyre-doing/#comment-2954</guid>
					<description>OK, I think I see more clearly. You are saying that Straw Ratio is irrelevant as long as fundraising generates more than it costs, when all costs are taken into account. Once you check for this, then you evaluate the program by looking at how effectively the net funds are spent on programs. 

That makes sense to me. 

I had a go at evaluating my favourite charity, the School of St Jude, using a three step approach.

    * Is it appropriate? Does it it fill a real need?
    * Is it effective? Does it get good results?
    * Is it efficient? Does it makes maximum use of its resources? 

It was easy to find evidence on the first two points, but harder on the third. 
You can check out my attempt here.
http://schoolstjude.blogspot.com/2007/05/wheres-evidence.html

The third point is really what GiveWell is about -- distinguishing those charities that are using their resources to the best advantage. I think you are probably well on the way towards developing a pro forma for gathering the relevant information. 
Have you looked at the kinds of program evaluation done for international agencies like USAID? Have you talked with Evaluation specialists? The American Evaluation Association is the professional organisation for evaluators. They have all kinds of neat tools like the Hierarchy of Outcomes framework, and they distinguish between Process Evaluation (how well it does it), Outcome Evaluation (what results it gets) and so forth. Their website is www.eval.org/

Cheers
Gillian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I think I see more clearly. You are saying that Straw Ratio is irrelevant as long as fundraising generates more than it costs, when all costs are taken into account. Once you check for this, then you evaluate the program by looking at how effectively the net funds are spent on programs. </p>
<p>That makes sense to me. </p>
<p>I had a go at evaluating my favourite charity, the School of St Jude, using a three step approach.</p>
<p>    * Is it appropriate? Does it it fill a real need?<br />
    * Is it effective? Does it get good results?<br />
    * Is it efficient? Does it makes maximum use of its resources? </p>
<p>It was easy to find evidence on the first two points, but harder on the third.<br />
You can check out my attempt here.<br />
<a href="http://schoolstjude.blogspot.com/2007/05/wheres-evidence.html" rel="nofollow">http://schoolstjude.blogspot.com/2007/05/wheres-evidence.html</a></p>
<p>The third point is really what GiveWell is about &#8212; distinguishing those charities that are using their resources to the best advantage. I think you are probably well on the way towards developing a pro forma for gathering the relevant information.<br />
Have you looked at the kinds of program evaluation done for international agencies like USAID? Have you talked with Evaluation specialists? The American Evaluation Association is the professional organisation for evaluators. They have all kinds of neat tools like the Hierarchy of Outcomes framework, and they distinguish between Process Evaluation (how well it does it), Outcome Evaluation (what results it gets) and so forth. Their website is <a href="http://www.eval.org/" rel="nofollow">www.eval.org/</a></p>
<p>Cheers<br />
Gillian
</p>
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		<title>by: Holden</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2007/04/24/do-any-charities-know-what-theyre-doing/#comment-2913</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 06:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2007/04/24/do-any-charities-know-what-theyre-doing/#comment-2913</guid>
					<description>I think you bring up good arguments that we haven't already covered for why the Straw Ratio can be misleading.  Regarding fundraising expenses, I would think a charity can spend as much money as it wants on fundraising as long as it brings in more - the bigger concern is when it spends important people's time on it, and that's where you have to be careful.  But your "backpackers" example is a perfect example of where a perfectly reasonable expenditure would appear inefficient to someone using Straw Ratio-type methodology.

What's unclear to me is why you *don't* think the Straw Ratio is irrelevant.  We think it is, by and large (may be useful in weeding out flagrant crooks, but it's no good in distinguishing mediocre charities from excellent ones).  We think that trying to understand a charity using its Form 990 is trying to get blood from a stone, and that rather than insist on making something out of the information that's easy to get, we need to get the more complex, difficult-to-obtain - but relevant - information about what charities actually do and what the evidence is that it works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you bring up good arguments that we haven&#8217;t already covered for why the Straw Ratio can be misleading.  Regarding fundraising expenses, I would think a charity can spend as much money as it wants on fundraising as long as it brings in more - the bigger concern is when it spends important people&#8217;s time on it, and that&#8217;s where you have to be careful.  But your &#8220;backpackers&#8221; example is a perfect example of where a perfectly reasonable expenditure would appear inefficient to someone using Straw Ratio-type methodology.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s unclear to me is why you *don&#8217;t* think the Straw Ratio is irrelevant.  We think it is, by and large (may be useful in weeding out flagrant crooks, but it&#8217;s no good in distinguishing mediocre charities from excellent ones).  We think that trying to understand a charity using its Form 990 is trying to get blood from a stone, and that rather than insist on making something out of the information that&#8217;s easy to get, we need to get the more complex, difficult-to-obtain - but relevant - information about what charities actually do and what the evidence is that it works.
</p>
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		<title>by: Gillian</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2007/04/24/do-any-charities-know-what-theyre-doing/#comment-2912</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 06:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2007/04/24/do-any-charities-know-what-theyre-doing/#comment-2912</guid>
					<description>Hi Holden,

I'm not quite sure where this thought fits with your posts, but it feels important to me. It relates to the proportion of a charity's money that is spent on admin and fundraising, and the proportion spent on programs. This is your straw ratio, I think.

My view is that the world needs charities that spend almost everything on programs (high straw ratio?) AND IT ALSO NEEDS charities that spend relatively more on fundraising (lower straw ratio). 

The penny dropped for me when my husband said one more time that he liked to support MCC (a Mennonite charity)  because everything went to programs. At the same time I read that some charities found it worthwhile to pay backpackers on a commission basis to intercept people in the street and sign them up. The charity got 50% of the amount donated. In my husband's view this was an inefficient charity and he would not want to give to it. But, apparently these street intercepts are particularly successful at getting donations from young males - a group that is commonly under-represented amongst donors. 

I realised that MCC doesn't have to spend any money on fundraising because the money just funnels in through church networks. 

We need a variety of charities, with a variety of fundraising methods, and a range of straw ratios, because different donors respond to different overtures. 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

Does this mean 'straw ratio' is irrelevant? I don't think so. There must be a zone of inefficiency below which it becomes less effective. I wonder how one would develop guidelines for that?!!

This suggests that your assessments may not be applicable to charities that put extra resources into gathering donations from hard-to-reach donors.  Not many charities have a mainline connection to a community of givers like the Mennonite church.

How will your assessment process take account of this? Perhaps it should be recognised in your guidelines? Perhaps it already is. 

Thanks for providing this open forum for thinking about these issues.
Gillian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Holden,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not quite sure where this thought fits with your posts, but it feels important to me. It relates to the proportion of a charity&#8217;s money that is spent on admin and fundraising, and the proportion spent on programs. This is your straw ratio, I think.</p>
<p>My view is that the world needs charities that spend almost everything on programs (high straw ratio?) AND IT ALSO NEEDS charities that spend relatively more on fundraising (lower straw ratio). </p>
<p>The penny dropped for me when my husband said one more time that he liked to support MCC (a Mennonite charity)  because everything went to programs. At the same time I read that some charities found it worthwhile to pay backpackers on a commission basis to intercept people in the street and sign them up. The charity got 50% of the amount donated. In my husband&#8217;s view this was an inefficient charity and he would not want to give to it. But, apparently these street intercepts are particularly successful at getting donations from young males - a group that is commonly under-represented amongst donors. </p>
<p>I realised that MCC doesn&#8217;t have to spend any money on fundraising because the money just funnels in through church networks. </p>
<p>We need a variety of charities, with a variety of fundraising methods, and a range of straw ratios, because different donors respond to different overtures. 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.</p>
<p>Does this mean &#8217;straw ratio&#8217; is irrelevant? I don&#8217;t think so. There must be a zone of inefficiency below which it becomes less effective. I wonder how one would develop guidelines for that?!!</p>
<p>This suggests that your assessments may not be applicable to charities that put extra resources into gathering donations from hard-to-reach donors.  Not many charities have a mainline connection to a community of givers like the Mennonite church.</p>
<p>How will your assessment process take account of this? Perhaps it should be recognised in your guidelines? Perhaps it already is. </p>
<p>Thanks for providing this open forum for thinking about these issues.<br />
Gillian
</p>
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		<title>by: Holden</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2007/04/24/do-any-charities-know-what-theyre-doing/#comment-2109</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2007/04/24/do-any-charities-know-what-theyre-doing/#comment-2109</guid>
					<description>Startups have other avenues for raising capital, including both foundations and personal connections (and those are what we're trying to take advantage of for our own funding as well).

We won't be the only funder in the world, and we can't and won't do it all, especially in our first year.  We're focusing on adding value in a way that no one else is: finding what's proven, effective, and scalable, and supporting it with total openness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Startups have other avenues for raising capital, including both foundations and personal connections (and those are what we&#8217;re trying to take advantage of for our own funding as well).</p>
<p>We won&#8217;t be the only funder in the world, and we can&#8217;t and won&#8217;t do it all, especially in our first year.  We&#8217;re focusing on adding value in a way that no one else is: finding what&#8217;s proven, effective, and scalable, and supporting it with total openness.
</p>
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		<title>by: Julian</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2007/04/24/do-any-charities-know-what-theyre-doing/#comment-2108</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2007/04/24/do-any-charities-know-what-theyre-doing/#comment-2108</guid>
					<description>What about start-up charities, which, like you, might have a great idea and have done a lot of research but are simply lacking funds for the moment?  Are you going to hold off until you can evaluate how efficiently they spend the little funding they do get? Or are you going to take a chance based on the information they provide and hope that they are actually competent to implement their plan, knowing that your donation will do the most good at that point (although the good, in this case, would be for the charity)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about start-up charities, which, like you, might have a great idea and have done a lot of research but are simply lacking funds for the moment?  Are you going to hold off until you can evaluate how efficiently they spend the little funding they do get? Or are you going to take a chance based on the information they provide and hope that they are actually competent to implement their plan, knowing that your donation will do the most good at that point (although the good, in this case, would be for the charity)?
</p>
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