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	<title>Comments on: Don&#8217;t take our breadth away</title>
	<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/</link>
	<description>Exploring how to get real change for your dollar.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 06:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Holned Karpronsky</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-16486</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-16486</guid>
					<description>It's obvious that Holden, Ellie and the whole GiveUp crew are incompetent and, worse by far, self-important imbeciles whose main objective is to "bite off more than [they] can chew". 

The obvious solution is: JUST SUCK ON IT, GiveWell.

If this comment gets deleted it's just because the moderators can't deal with the transparency of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s obvious that Holden, Ellie and the whole GiveUp crew are incompetent and, worse by far, self-important imbeciles whose main objective is to &#8220;bite off more than [they] can chew&#8221;. </p>
<p>The obvious solution is: JUST SUCK ON IT, GiveWell.</p>
<p>If this comment gets deleted it&#8217;s just because the moderators can&#8217;t deal with the transparency of it.
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		<title>by: michael vassar</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15989</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 06:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15989</guid>
					<description>Sean: I think that we agree on all the points you discussed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean: I think that we agree on all the points you discussed.
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		<title>by: Sean Stannard-Stockton</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15870</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 02:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15870</guid>
					<description>Michael, your point about the lack of benefit to diversification in philanthropy is something I agree with strongly and have discussed in other forums. My point was not that GiveWell should cover multiple sectors in order to reduce risk. I was just saying that it is more difficult to cover multiple sectors in philanthropy because the underlying experts are not there (or not contained within an easily accessible system).

If GiveWell was only concerned with maximizing the impact of their own funds (as most foundations are) I would suggest narrowing their focus. But the part of the GiveWell experiment I find most interesting is the way it can help inform other donors. If they have a narrow focus, they will only be a resource to donors with that same narrow interest. If they have a broad focus, they will be able to attract multiple donors and more people can learn something from the process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, your point about the lack of benefit to diversification in philanthropy is something I agree with strongly and have discussed in other forums. My point was not that GiveWell should cover multiple sectors in order to reduce risk. I was just saying that it is more difficult to cover multiple sectors in philanthropy because the underlying experts are not there (or not contained within an easily accessible system).</p>
<p>If GiveWell was only concerned with maximizing the impact of their own funds (as most foundations are) I would suggest narrowing their focus. But the part of the GiveWell experiment I find most interesting is the way it can help inform other donors. If they have a narrow focus, they will only be a resource to donors with that same narrow interest. If they have a broad focus, they will be able to attract multiple donors and more people can learn something from the process.
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		<title>by: Em</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15835</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15835</guid>
					<description>I agree on breadth over depth. I think that on the breadth issue you can continue to spark a very useful, much needed discussion about how priorities are chosen in the philanthropic sector. You also will, I think, be closer to the big questions that ought to trouble the average donor, who is unlikely to become an issue expert or hire issue experts (a la a foundation) to direct their giving. 

To employ an inadequate analogy from the political rather than financial sector: it's the equivalent of helping distinguish between political parties in the general election rather than focusing on the differences between candidates in the primaries. It's not that parsing the details of the primary candidates' positions isn't important, it's that the differences tend to pale in comparison to those between the parties. That's why in most cases (perhaps the current presidential primaries excepted...), the first is usually the hobby of small number of engaged individuals, while the latter is of much more widespread concern.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree on breadth over depth. I think that on the breadth issue you can continue to spark a very useful, much needed discussion about how priorities are chosen in the philanthropic sector. You also will, I think, be closer to the big questions that ought to trouble the average donor, who is unlikely to become an issue expert or hire issue experts (a la a foundation) to direct their giving. </p>
<p>To employ an inadequate analogy from the political rather than financial sector: it&#8217;s the equivalent of helping distinguish between political parties in the general election rather than focusing on the differences between candidates in the primaries. It&#8217;s not that parsing the details of the primary candidates&#8217; positions isn&#8217;t important, it&#8217;s that the differences tend to pale in comparison to those between the parties. That&#8217;s why in most cases (perhaps the current presidential primaries excepted&#8230;), the first is usually the hobby of small number of engaged individuals, while the latter is of much more widespread concern.
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		<title>by: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15824</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15824</guid>
					<description>MV: You missed the point entirely. You said, and implied, far more in your posts about how irrational people are, than that we should simply try to improve. Nobody's against improvement, just wasting time going in unproductive directions. I believe that's because you, like Holden, are naive in the way kids are who are used to being praised for high SAT scores, but who don't have enough experience yet to be able to judge the value of their own conclusions.  Young academically accomplished people who get used to people calling them "brilliant" are handicapped by lack of humility. If you want to dismiss this description of your thinking as naive, which is perfectly legitimate, by mocking with "nya nya" go ahead, but you haven't learned anything from the feedback, and therein lies your problem.  We’re not going to bio-engineer our way out of being human. That kind of thinking used to be called "utopian." I would be interested in hearing what you have to say in 50 years, when you’ve (one hopes) out-grown your wise acre, naïve belief that your high SAT scores somehow mean you know better than all the wisest, smartest human beings who’ve thought about things for centuries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MV: You missed the point entirely. You said, and implied, far more in your posts about how irrational people are, than that we should simply try to improve. Nobody&#8217;s against improvement, just wasting time going in unproductive directions. I believe that&#8217;s because you, like Holden, are naive in the way kids are who are used to being praised for high SAT scores, but who don&#8217;t have enough experience yet to be able to judge the value of their own conclusions.  Young academically accomplished people who get used to people calling them &#8220;brilliant&#8221; are handicapped by lack of humility. If you want to dismiss this description of your thinking as naive, which is perfectly legitimate, by mocking with &#8220;nya nya&#8221; go ahead, but you haven&#8217;t learned anything from the feedback, and therein lies your problem.  We’re not going to bio-engineer our way out of being human. That kind of thinking used to be called &#8220;utopian.&#8221; I would be interested in hearing what you have to say in 50 years, when you’ve (one hopes) out-grown your wise acre, naïve belief that your high SAT scores somehow mean you know better than all the wisest, smartest human beings who’ve thought about things for centuries.
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		<title>by: michael vassar</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15821</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15821</guid>
					<description>Michael:  People tend to act in the following unwise manner...

Andrea:  Yes, they do, and you are a person so you probably do it too nya nya

Michael:  OK then, if you don't believe in trying to do better than the behavioral patterns that humans default to then suit yourself.  However, since the point of this blog and this organization is to try to do better in a particular way we aren't going to care much what you say about the matter if you don't think that trying to do better is a good idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael:  People tend to act in the following unwise manner&#8230;</p>
<p>Andrea:  Yes, they do, and you are a person so you probably do it too nya nya</p>
<p>Michael:  OK then, if you don&#8217;t believe in trying to do better than the behavioral patterns that humans default to then suit yourself.  However, since the point of this blog and this organization is to try to do better in a particular way we aren&#8217;t going to care much what you say about the matter if you don&#8217;t think that trying to do better is a good idea.
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		<title>by: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15787</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15787</guid>
					<description>MV, Yes, this is the human condition.  Not quite sure where you're going with this, unless it's to solve the human condition, which I have a sneaking suspicion you think you have done.  Or, some might think it's bs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MV, Yes, this is the human condition.  Not quite sure where you&#8217;re going with this, unless it&#8217;s to solve the human condition, which I have a sneaking suspicion you think you have done.  Or, some might think it&#8217;s bs.
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		<title>by: michael vassar</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15767</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15767</guid>
					<description>Andrea:  thinking globally is a very unusual and unnatural thing for humans to do.  like many other uncommon beneficial activities, when they actually do it the consequences are likely to be very large.  

Think how little information children have about any given career when they commit years of their life to a career track pointing in that direction, or for the most elementary example think of the supposed conviction that most people have in whatever religion they are born into.  Great effort is expended in a direction determined by a non-deliberative decision despite great disagreement between agents.  For a classic experiment on this, see the Robber's Cave experiment http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/social/sherif_robbers_cave_experiment.html

As a strong general rule, a person is acting unwisely and irrationally if they invest great prolonged effort in any task without great deliberation although others in approximately their circumstances dedicate their efforts to a different task.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrea:  thinking globally is a very unusual and unnatural thing for humans to do.  like many other uncommon beneficial activities, when they actually do it the consequences are likely to be very large.  </p>
<p>Think how little information children have about any given career when they commit years of their life to a career track pointing in that direction, or for the most elementary example think of the supposed conviction that most people have in whatever religion they are born into.  Great effort is expended in a direction determined by a non-deliberative decision despite great disagreement between agents.  For a classic experiment on this, see the Robber&#8217;s Cave experiment <a href="http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/social/sherif_robbers_cave_experiment.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/social/sherif_robbers_cave_experiment.html</a></p>
<p>As a strong general rule, a person is acting unwisely and irrationally if they invest great prolonged effort in any task without great deliberation although others in approximately their circumstances dedicate their efforts to a different task.
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		<title>by: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15743</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15743</guid>
					<description>MV, I think you are also describing short-term versus long-term investing.  Another major difference is that there is a far simpler bottom line when investing to make money than when investing to improve the human condition.  In the latter case it could be perfectly rational for a donor to choose a relatively less effective organization or method if that donor has judged that he or she values that cause.  I know you are trying as hard as you can to divide the world up between "rational" people and everybody else, but I don't think you are going to be able to do that with your starting point.  You are over-thinking some of these issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MV, I think you are also describing short-term versus long-term investing.  Another major difference is that there is a far simpler bottom line when investing to make money than when investing to improve the human condition.  In the latter case it could be perfectly rational for a donor to choose a relatively less effective organization or method if that donor has judged that he or she values that cause.  I know you are trying as hard as you can to divide the world up between &#8220;rational&#8221; people and everybody else, but I don&#8217;t think you are going to be able to do that with your starting point.  You are over-thinking some of these issues.
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		<title>by: Phil S</title>
		<link>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15740</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.givewell.org/2008/02/19/dont-take-our-breadth-away/#comment-15740</guid>
					<description>Final comment for now...

The original post, as well as several of the comments, suggest that the bird's eye view is very important.  I would agree.  I think it's more important to make the right decision between, say, African health and US K-12 education than to make the right decision WITHIN the chosen area (within reason - of course one doesn't want to support a scam organization in any field, and one should make reasonable efforts to find a good organization).

In turn, this opens up the question of how should GiveWell's research be focused.  Is it better to choose 5 or so topics based more or less on gut feel, then find a few exemplars within each topic (which in turn, allows readers to compare the topics to an extent), or is it better to focus on the bird's eye view in the first place?  i.e. I've thought for a while that GiveWell should put more emphasis on high level charity issues - mapping the charitable landscape and the bird's eye view.  But I see merit in the approach that GiveWell has taken, as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Final comment for now&#8230;</p>
<p>The original post, as well as several of the comments, suggest that the bird&#8217;s eye view is very important.  I would agree.  I think it&#8217;s more important to make the right decision between, say, African health and US K-12 education than to make the right decision WITHIN the chosen area (within reason - of course one doesn&#8217;t want to support a scam organization in any field, and one should make reasonable efforts to find a good organization).</p>
<p>In turn, this opens up the question of how should GiveWell&#8217;s research be focused.  Is it better to choose 5 or so topics based more or less on gut feel, then find a few exemplars within each topic (which in turn, allows readers to compare the topics to an extent), or is it better to focus on the bird&#8217;s eye view in the first place?  i.e. I&#8217;ve thought for a while that GiveWell should put more emphasis on high level charity issues - mapping the charitable landscape and the bird&#8217;s eye view.  But I see merit in the approach that GiveWell has taken, as well.
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