Comments on: Please Don’t Give Me a Goat for the Holidays http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/ Exploring how to get real change for your dollar. Thu, 17 May 2012 08:42:40 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.7 by: Holden http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-265045 Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:23:44 +0000 http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-265045 Andy, see our <a href="http://blog.givewell.org/?p=505#comments" rel="nofollow">2009 exchange with Heifer International</a>. We have seen evaluation of Heifer but cannot comment on it because it is confidential. We believe it should not be confidential. Andy, see our 2009 exchange with Heifer International. We have seen evaluation of Heifer but cannot comment on it because it is confidential. We believe it should not be confidential.

]]> by: Cathy Watson http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-264937 Fri, 27 Jan 2012 05:49:08 +0000 http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-264937 In Uganda -- so probably elsewhere - we have had practical problems with goats. Children can stay home from school to care for them. They eat the seedlings in the school woodlots: trees are being grown for shade, windbreak, fuelwood for school meals, income for schools. Cathy Watson Straight Talk, Tree Talk, Mvule Trust -- Uganda. In Uganda — so probably elsewhere - we have had practical problems with goats. Children can stay home from school to care for them. They eat the seedlings in the school woodlots: trees are being grown for shade, windbreak, fuelwood for school meals, income for schools. Cathy Watson Straight Talk, Tree Talk, Mvule Trust — Uganda.

]]> by: Andy Rowe http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-264814 Thu, 26 Jan 2012 19:29:50 +0000 http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-264814 What about Heifer International? Their work is evaluated vigorously by independent evaluators of quality (http://www.heifer.org/google-search?s=evaluation) and they work with the recipients using good community development practices. It seems that you have a broad sweep that might require an exception. What about Heifer International? Their work is evaluated vigorously by independent evaluators of quality (http://www.heifer.org/google-search?s=evaluation) and they work with the recipients using good community development practices. It seems that you have a broad sweep that might require an exception.

]]> by: Alison http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-259345 Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:48:05 +0000 http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-259345 Thank you for this post. I work for a development organization that in the past has taken "in-kind" gifts, such as school supplies. However, overtime we've found the most effective donation is indeed cash. Certainly, the students at our school need school supplies, but it does the community more good if we use donated cash, to buy school supplies from a local supplier. This bolsters the local economy and results in supplies for kids at our school. In a similar fashion, we no longer let folks sponsor individual students, because it is nearly impossible to get donors for all 700 kids, and so some kids come out "more special" than others, because they are sponsored. Some of our donors don't like this, they want a picture, they want a name, they want a personal connection to a student. On the other hand, other donors understand and overtime hopefully more will understand that each child is equally deserving. With that in mind, I'd say that individual child sponsor-ships are somewhat akin to "giving a goat." Thank you for this post. I work for a development organization that in the past has taken “in-kind” gifts, such as school supplies. However, overtime we’ve found the most effective donation is indeed cash. Certainly, the students at our school need school supplies, but it does the community more good if we use donated cash, to buy school supplies from a local supplier. This bolsters the local economy and results in supplies for kids at our school.
In a similar fashion, we no longer let folks sponsor individual students, because it is nearly impossible to get donors for all 700 kids, and so some kids come out “more special” than others, because they are sponsored. Some of our donors don’t like this, they want a picture, they want a name, they want a personal connection to a student. On the other hand, other donors understand and overtime hopefully more will understand that each child is equally deserving. With that in mind, I’d say that individual child sponsor-ships are somewhat akin to “giving a goat.”

]]> by: Holden http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-258786 Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:27:05 +0000 http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-258786 Henk J.Th. van Stokkom: I think we could have written the sentence about SCI's financials better, and we will revise the review to do so. We meant that we have not seen financial statements in the standardized form we are accustomed to; as a non-U.S. charity, SCI is not required to file such statements. However, we do have a strong understanding of SCI's financials and we discuss the details in our review. Regarding your post:<ul> <li>You say "If you have any basic doubts like; 'Will the person who receives the goat be well-suited to receive it?' etcetera, simply ask." Asking these sorts of questions is exactly what GiveWell does. But concrete, reliable answers can be difficult to get. Livestock charities haven't published or provided good answers to our critical questions; our <a href="http://www.givewell.org/charities/top-charities" rel="nofollow">top charities</a> have. <li> As stated above, I agree that charities shouldn't literally connect individual donors with individual goats. This post doesn't advocate that they do so - it just points out that the tangibility of the gift (which most people on this thread have raised as the main reason to "give a goat" rather than giving to another charity) is illusory. <li>"People I want to help" refers to the general class of "people who can benefit a lot from charitable activities." It does not refer to specific people. <li>You say "Giving cash is always the best option." The central point of the 2009 post you criticize is that giving livestock seems inferior to giving cash. So I am not sure we disagree when it comes to the message of the 2009 post.</ul> Henk J.Th. van Stokkom: I think we could have written the sentence about SCI’s financials better, and we will revise the review to do so. We meant that we have not seen financial statements in the standardized form we are accustomed to; as a non-U.S. charity, SCI is not required to file such statements. However, we do have a strong understanding of SCI’s financials and we discuss the details in our review.

Regarding your post:

  • You say “If you have any basic doubts like; ‘Will the person who receives the goat be well-suited to receive it?’ etcetera, simply ask.” Asking these sorts of questions is exactly what GiveWell does. But concrete, reliable answers can be difficult to get. Livestock charities haven’t published or provided good answers to our critical questions; our top charities have.
  • As stated above, I agree that charities shouldn’t literally connect individual donors with individual goats. This post doesn’t advocate that they do so - it just points out that the tangibility of the gift (which most people on this thread have raised as the main reason to “give a goat” rather than giving to another charity) is illusory.
  • “People I want to help” refers to the general class of “people who can benefit a lot from charitable activities.” It does not refer to specific people.
  • You say “Giving cash is always the best option.” The central point of the 2009 post you criticize is that giving livestock seems inferior to giving cash. So I am not sure we disagree when it comes to the message of the 2009 post.
]]> by: Holden http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-258784 Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:21:35 +0000 http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-258784 All, thanks for the thoughtful comments. I understand the argument for using "give a goat" as a psychological mechanism to get more others interested in charity, and I think the validity of this argument will depend on the individuals in question. However, if you are an impact-oriented donor, I think you should (a) discourage others from "giving a goat" to you, as opposed to giving to your preferred charities; (b) ask some of the following questions before "giving a goat" to someone else.<ul> <li>Might it be possible to, instead of "giving a goat," make a donation in the recipient's name to the most effective charity you can identify, potentially starting a conversation as Rob outlines? <li>If the tangibility of the "goat" is important, can this effect be achieved - with some creativity - with another charity? If you're happy with the idea that this tangibility is illusory anyway, and that the fine print indicates that the actual gift is general support to an organization, then why can't this illusory tangibility and fine print be applied to the charity of your choice? <li>Are the benefits of the "goat" (in terms of tangibility/emotional appeal) worth the costs of implicitly sending the message - to both recipient and charity - that "This gift is about making ourselves feel good rather than about helping others in the best way we know of?" (See last bullet point in the original post)</ul> All, thanks for the thoughtful comments.

I understand the argument for using “give a goat” as a psychological mechanism to get more others interested in charity, and I think the validity of this argument will depend on the individuals in question. However, if you are an impact-oriented donor, I think you should (a) discourage others from “giving a goat” to you, as opposed to giving to your preferred charities; (b) ask some of the following questions before “giving a goat” to someone else.

  • Might it be possible to, instead of “giving a goat,” make a donation in the recipient’s name to the most effective charity you can identify, potentially starting a conversation as Rob outlines?
  • If the tangibility of the “goat” is important, can this effect be achieved - with some creativity - with another charity? If you’re happy with the idea that this tangibility is illusory anyway, and that the fine print indicates that the actual gift is general support to an organization, then why can’t this illusory tangibility and fine print be applied to the charity of your choice?
  • Are the benefits of the “goat” (in terms of tangibility/emotional appeal) worth the costs of implicitly sending the message - to both recipient and charity - that “This gift is about making ourselves feel good rather than about helping others in the best way we know of?” (See last bullet point in the original post)
]]> by: Henk J.Th. van Stokkom http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-258324 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 08:24:27 +0000 http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-258324 A reply to this GiveWell post is written her > http://bit.ly/tk8cF8 Part of my post reads; As an example GiveWell, in last week's blogpost, refers to two of their favorites; saving a life for $2000 or keeping someone worm-free throughout childhood for $5. Clicking on the latter will lead you to a page about SCI where it reads > 'We have not seen complete, year-by-year financial data from SCI'. We have not seen complete, year-by-year financial data from SCI.......? A reply to this GiveWell post is written her > http://bit.ly/tk8cF8

Part of my post reads;

As an example GiveWell, in last week’s blogpost, refers to two of their favorites;
saving a life for $2000 or keeping someone worm-free throughout childhood for $5.
Clicking on the latter will lead you to a page about SCI where it reads > ‘We have not seen complete, year-by-year financial data from SCI’.

We have not seen complete, year-by-year financial data from SCI…….?

]]> by: Jonah S http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-257942 Tue, 27 Dec 2011 20:52:03 +0000 http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-257942 Ian: I agree. Making a careful case for this would go beyond the scope of a comment and so I was instead suggesting that even under generous assumptions there's a case for not giving goats. Ian: I agree. Making a careful case for this would go beyond the scope of a comment and so I was instead suggesting that even under generous assumptions there’s a case for not giving goats.

]]> by: Ian Turner http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-257901 Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:31:26 +0000 http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-257901 Jonah: Given that it's not clear whether or not giving goats is effective at all, I think it's a stretch to assume that Heifer, Oxfam, World Vision, etc. are even a quarter as effective as AMF, SCI, VillageReach, etc. Jonah: Given that it’s not clear whether or not giving goats is effective at all, I think it’s a stretch to assume that Heifer, Oxfam, World Vision, etc. are even a quarter as effective as AMF, SCI, VillageReach, etc.

]]> by: Jana http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-257595 Mon, 26 Dec 2011 14:05:02 +0000 http://blog.givewell.org/2011/12/23/please-dont-give-me-a-goat-for-the-holidays/#comment-257595 This is what I call a creative idea. I wonder when the Germans will start sending goats as presents. Although it is creative, I hope that these animals are not suffering from it. This is what I call a creative idea. I wonder when the Germans will start sending goats as presents. Although it is creative, I hope that these animals are not suffering from it.

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